PDA

View Full Version : GW2: Breaking the "Holy Trinity"



Dyasis
07-30-2012, 08:48 PM
3414

So Gamebreak.tv sought out to see just how well GW2's "No Holy Trinity" really is.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/breaking-the-trinity/

RATT
07-31-2012, 03:03 AM
nice vid, i rly do love that the holy trinity isnt rly needed in this game. cant wait to try out these dungeons on release!

Nedlinin
07-31-2012, 02:48 PM
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who enjoys the so called "holy trinity"? I feel it makes the game a bit more team reliant. I have to protect my healer and in return, he has to keep me alive so I can continue protecting him.

Just curious if people really hate the trinity aspect of games or are just excited for a change.

Psythian
07-31-2012, 03:06 PM
In days past being just a DPS class and never having the skills to be a tank or healer, doing group tasks was tough to put together the correct groups, sometimes you ran nothing if the right people did not log on (ToR). In a guild that might have 30 ppl on, 2 tanks, 4 healers and 24 DPS, the Tanks and healers usually got geared and bored with the content LONG before the DPS was at the same level. This caused more than enough drama when the tank might only want to run with groups that were his level in gear to run higher content when the rest had to wait. The other DPS out there will remember this. A lot of the times people were pushed into re-speccing or requested to play the tank/healer character even though they had a DPS they enjoyed more. It was always better to be a tank and a healer to easily get a group, than being the best DPS in the guild. How many times did the raid groups have a pure DPS as a leader and not a tank or healer? I welcome the change, everyone is on equal footing, do I sound bitter, then I am sorry...

Nedlinin
07-31-2012, 03:10 PM
@Psythian:
And, I feel your pain. In WoW I had both a raiding Dwarf Priest and Human Rogue. But, I made sure to run instances/raids I didn't get gear from anymore specifically to repay the people who helped me get what I had. So, I did ZG and MC each week even though I was nearly full T2. It was helping others and the people made it fun each week.

I think a tank who gets gear and "moves on" is just not a very great person ><

But, I can see your point. It definitely allows people to play what they want, not what everyone else wants.

EDIT: I should state my T2 char was my priest because I raided on him 90% of the time. It wasn't until after everyone else was geared enough to handle fights easily that I was bringing my rogue in.

Kove
07-31-2012, 03:12 PM
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who enjoys the so called "holy trinity"? I feel it makes the game a bit more team reliant. I have to protect my healer and in return, he has to keep me alive so I can continue protecting him.

Just curious if people really hate the trinity aspect of games or are just excited for a change.

Personally, i love it but i can see why they are using it as a selling point.

Dyasis
07-31-2012, 04:15 PM
Before GW2 we were forced to use the holy trinity, now playing without the need for it, I don't think I could play a game with it.

It gets cumbersome having to have the correct people to enjoy the game.

"Lets do this raid guys!"
"ok we got everyone online"
"Sorry guys it's been two hours, I have to run, says the tank or healer"
"well since we don't have another one online we have to stop"

I hated that shit!

RATT
07-31-2012, 06:12 PM
Before GW2 we were forced to use the holy trinity, now playing without the need for it, I don't think I could play a game with it.

It gets cumbersome having to have the correct people to enjoy the game.

"Lets do this raid guys!"
"ok we got everyone online"
"Sorry guys it's been two hours, I have to run, says the tank or healer"
"well since we don't have another one online we have to stop"

I hated that shit!

thats exactly what i went thru! for a bit in WoW, i had a small group going but we were all dps except this couple who were tank and healer. they played the least out of us so we couldnt do much without them on dungeon wise.

we're still going to have people spec more into support or control or tank or dps or whatever still, and there could mayb still be a better team comp to come up with, but its not required or set in stone that we need one of this, one of that and one of those to run a dungeon now.

Kilth
07-31-2012, 06:43 PM
the trinity has its pro's and con's,

pro's - pve

con's - pvp

now i know that is over simplified, but when you have a system built that 2 or 3 healers can keep someone up through MASS amounts of incoming damage, that is totally unbalanced in pvp, so you end up with band aid bullshit like expertise or some other bullshit pvp stat to try to balance it out, and that leads to what i FUCKING HATE about pvp in most mmo's. these type of systems tells players like myself "we dont give a flying fuck how good you are, if you dont grind just pvp, any asshat who does will dominate you because he has one stat higher than you, so fuck you"

the trinity can be fun, but its old, tired, and has been ridden like a two dollar whore, and you will always end up not doing stuff because you are short something you must have to be successful, and i thought the point of a MMO was for people to play together, not to wait on just a few people to log in every night (similar to a job) just so everyone else can have some fun, ive been that guy for a long time, it fucking sucks

RATT
07-31-2012, 07:58 PM
o man, i totally forgot about that. people dominating in pvp all because they got their pocket healers! that always pissed me off lol

matheon
07-31-2012, 09:04 PM
I believe the cons go deeper though, aside from ruining the possibility of PVP balance and making some characters inherently "worth more" due to their role.

when a game forces the trinity on players it also forces a certain playstyle on them.

how do you deal with an encounter when you are playing a predefined trinity mechanic game? the answer is essentially the same for every game and every encounter. in a nutshell you tank the enemy with the tank, you heal the tank with the healer, and you kill the enemy with the dps. every time. every fight.

there is no room for variation on this model because roles are predefined.

because of this developers are then forced to add gimmicky "mechanics" to fights to spice things up and make the fights more challenging. even still, going into every fight we say "i'll tank it, you heal me, you guys kill it" and we say that repeatedly and unrelentingly for every fight.

its all very stale in my opinion. the staleness being due to no variability in interaction if everyone does their job properly.
the interactions being.

DPS->Enemy->Tank<-Healer

whereas if you take the same 3 players and an enemy and try to draw their interactions without predefined roles in a 2d plane as i did above that is not possible as any player may be interacting with the enemy or each other.

so theres my take.. the trinity does simplify PVE somewhat in that everyone comes into the group knowing their role and how to perform it to a degree. there is a checklist of sorts that tells you "can i complete the content?"

but you pay for this in predictability, which is not fun in my opinion. i much prefer not knowing how a fight is going to play out before i am in it. NPC AI is weak and predictable enough by its inherent "AIness".. i feel adding a control mechanic that makes that AI even more predictable was a horrible idea.

i understand liking team play, protecting healers and dps.. but in any game with teammates one should be protecting their teammates and working with them.. i argue that because of the less predictable nature of a fight with no aggro control proper team play can be even more important because dynamics may change at any time and the team has to adapt as a whole or suffer as a whole.

in the end, some people are always going to like having a predefined role.

i like having a role.. i just don't like the predefined part.

theres no rule set in stone by the gods that says we can't have roles in non-trinity games. just that we don't have them set by the developers at character creation -- we set them with how we play and build our characters.

Aramane
07-31-2012, 10:44 PM
I like(d) the holy trinity. I like to dedicate myself to a role in previous games. But with GW2 I like that I'll need to figure out and determine when to be defensive and when to be offensive.

For instance instead of spam healing someone getting focused, as a gaurdian, I'll just need to use my 2h sword to jump into the action, switch weapons to be able to put up some barriers/shields. Sounds much more fun than pillar humping spamming dispel and heals.

And if dungeons can be done with 5 DPS just imagine how much easier it will be with atleast 1 support character using defensive and healing abilities.

Zage
08-01-2012, 12:21 AM
I like(d) the holy trinity. I like to dedicate myself to a role in previous games. But with GW2 I like that I'll need to figure out and determine when to be defensive and when to be offensive.

For instance instead of spam healing someone getting focused, as a gaurdian, I'll just need to use my 2h sword to jump into the action, switch weapons to be able to put up some barriers/shields. Sounds much more fun than pillar humping spamming dispel and heals.

And if dungeons can be done with 5 DPS just imagine how much easier it will be with atleast 1 support character using defensive and healing abilities.

While not exactly going to be a healer(although I'm gonna use the healing elite) I'm playing my guardian to this style, with several immobilizes, some healing, and the support mechanics that come with the shield/focus use.

I can enjoy a support role like this in a way I never enjoyed healing classes.

Furcas
08-01-2012, 06:27 PM
Everyone will be a support class. It just varies on the how and to what degree. Many of the pure dps builds still have a lot of support related abilities or even direct buffing of their group. It's a fantastic concept and it's about fucking time too. Uo was like this and it was amazing. Granted you could run a meditation hybrid back in the day to pump out lots of healing, but still most organized pvp revolved around the group taking care of each other.

On the flip side for the terrible players out there you will be more responsible for your gameplay now. There's no great healer or amazing tank to cover for you as much as before. I like it to say the least.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Narvise
08-02-2012, 01:16 PM
On the flip side for the terrible players out there you will be more responsible for your gameplay now. There's no great healer or amazing tank to cover for you as much as before. I like it to say the least.

was this comment directed towards me?

Kove
08-02-2012, 01:19 PM
^^^^ lol, nice gif

Furcas
08-02-2012, 02:22 PM
was this comment directed towards me?

Lol. Need a graph, a flowchart or an etch-a-sketch?

<3

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2